Pubdate: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 Source: CNN (US Web) Show: CNN Live Today, Interview Section: News, Domestic Copyright: 2001 Cable News Network, Inc. Contact: http://cnn.com/feedback/ Website: http://www.cnn.com/ Forum: http://community.cnn.com/ Anchors: Lou Waters, Natalie Allen Guests: Gov. Gary Johnson (NM), Betsy Glick (Anti-Drug Coalitions of America) Note: Transcript # 01032108V75 IS AMERICA'S WAR ON DRUGS A FAILURE? LOU WATERS, CNN ANCHOR: Several significant dispatches today from America's so-called war on drugs. First, the feeling on the street is, the war's a dismal failure. A new survey by the Pew Center for the People and the Press finds nearly three-quarters of Americans say it is a losing battle. And the same number say they have little hope it will ever succeed because drug demand remains so high, that it'll be impossible to stop drugs use. Renewed interest in the drug war has been inspired recently by the Oscar-nominated film "Traffic," a film that examines the inability of U.S. government policies to stop the drug trade as seen in this clip. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "TRAFFIC") MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACTOR: We need to send a message. When Carlos Ayala hires Michael Adler as his legal defense, I send Ben Williams down to San Diego as a prosecutor. Why? Because it's a symbol. It's a symbol that we are sending the best. And it's a message that we're going after their top guys. So right now on this flight only, the dam is open for new ideas. (END VIDEO CLIP) WATERS: Michael Douglas there portraying America's drug czar. According to the Pew Center poll, more than half of those surveyed say interdiction, keeping drug shipments out, remains the government's most effective anti-drug policy. Reaction to the poll now from two folks with very different viewpoints. Betsy Glick is with the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America, which favors a community-wide approach to fighting drug abuse. She joins us from Washington. Welcome, Betsy. And also, New Mexico's governor, Gary Johnson, long favors decriminalizing drugs, such as marijuana and heroin. The governor joins us by phone now from Santa Fe. Governor, I know you're taking a precious time out to speak with us, so I'll get to you first. First of all, have you seen this movie "Traffic"? GOV. GARY JOHNSON (R), NEW MEXICO: I have. And I agree with your poll today, that the war on drugs is a miserable failure. And it's a miserable failure because it's being waged against 80 million Americans who have done illegal drugs. And this is in no way condoning drug use. All right? Anything I'm about to say is in no way condoning drug use. But we need to start to draw a line. And the line we need to draw is similar to alcohol. And let's not forget that at one point in this country's history, it was criminal to have a drink. The line we need to draw is, Hey, you're having a drink; that's a acceptable behavior. But you go outside of the bar after having had a drink and get in a car and drive the car, that has now become a criminal behavior. That's the line we need to draw when it comes to a lot of these drugs, is doing -- smoking marijuana in the confines of your own home, doing no harm to anybody arguably than yourself. Is that criminal? I say no. And right now, Lou, we are arresting 1.6 million people a year in this country on drug-related crimes. This is a war on ourselves. We're never going to win it. WATERS: Let me, Governor, give you a chance to hear Betsy Glick with the Anti-Drug Coalition of America, give her perspective on this. Then I'd like you to respond. Betsy, what do you think? BETSY GLICK, ANTI-DRUG COALITIONS OF AMER.: Well, certainly many people in the prevention field are beginning to feel that really we are -- we're in an epidemic. We don't refer to it as a war. We look as drug addiction as a disease that needs to be resolved. And we are challenging all of our members, local coalitions around the country, to find ways to help solve those problems one community at a time in their own backyards. And we have seen some success in this area. I think that some of the statistics that this Pew study shows are misleading, because drug use has gone down almost 50 percent in the last 20 years. Clearly there are some areas like ecstasy, methamphetamines that are becoming more popular these days. But that's why we need to attack this problem in the communities on a community level. WATERS: I'm hearing you saying essentially what the governor saying. Incarceration is not the answer. GLICK: Certainly we believe that the best way to solve the drug problem is to stop people from beginning drugs in the first place. And that's going to come by educating our teenagers, by setting up programs and communities that are enabling them to stay healthy and drug free. And we've got some significant federal assistance in that regard. But certainly it's going to take a lot of people working on a local level. School, educators, businesses, doctors, hospitals, preventive medicine. And that's really what's going to help us solve this problem. WATERS: And with the broad brush, Governor, isn't that what Vicente Fox, the new president of Mexico, was telling President Bush? We'll work on the supply, but you have to work on the demand. JOHNSON: Well, it's hypocritical to say that it's OK to smoke marijuana but not sell it. And that's another problem. It's great to have a recognition that this is a medical problem, not a criminal problem. And one of the fundamental problems with the drug war, one of the fundamental problems with what the government does today, is that they fundamentally believe that tens of millions of people, for example, that smoke marijuana fundamentally belong in rehabilitation. And that is just simply not the case. Fundamentally most people that smoke marijuana smoke marijuana, like other people have a cocktail in the evening. And the whole belief that we have reduced drug consumption by 50 percent is absolutely mythical. We spent $1 billion on federal drug interdiction in 1979. Today, we're spending federally about $20 billion. I guess we can expect that as we get used down to just a few hundred users, that we'll be spending the entire, national, you know, all of our money on reducing drug use. It's ridiculous. No. I don't think use has been dropped by 50 percent. WATERS: How about that, Betsy? In 1999, 46 percent of the million-and-a-half total arrest for drug abuse violations were for marijuana. Over 700,000 arrests were for marijuana. So what about the governor's point? GLICK: Well, I would still take issue with the governor, in that we have statistics that show that cocaine use specifically is down by four million users since 1985. And illicit drugs overall, there are eight million fewer users. So I do believe that we made some progress. And we have to continue, again, working on the demand side. I think that's one of the things that the movie "Traffic" has really highlighted, is that we can stifle the supply side. But if we don't stop the demand for drugs, that we are never going to be able to resolve this epidemic. WATERS: There's one other statistic, Governor. As many as 90 percent of drug offenders in state prisons today are black. JOHNSON: Well, that's a fact, Lou. And not only that, but half of those marijuana arrests -- I mean, depending on -- so 350,000 of the 700,000 arrests for marijuana are Hispanic. Tell me that 50 percent of the users of marijuana in the United States are Hispanic. Point being these laws are terribly discriminatory, between who gets arrested and who actually ends up spending time. If you're of color, there's like a seven-to-one ratio of you are going to spend time in jail if you're of color having been arrested. WATERS: Have you factored that into your thinking, Betsy? The fact that, as the governor says, these laws are apparently very discriminatory? GLICK: I really don't have enough information about that issue to talk about it. But what I can say is that we again are working with communities. And each community is really trying to find ways in their own community, whether that community be black or Hispanic. But we are working with leaders in those communities to find solutions to their problems. And anybody who has a problem in their community and would like some assistance, please visit our Web site, cadca.org. And we'd be happy to help you with that. WATERS: All right, we thank you both. This was going to be a topic of discussion throughout the day here on CNN and in weeks and months and years to come, we would imagine. Betsy Glick with the Anti-Drug Coalitions of America. And Governor Gary Johnson, the Republican from New Mexico, we thank you so much, sir, for taking your time out. JOHNSON: All right. Again, where is the dividend in the drug war? If we're reducing drug use by half, where is the dividend? Thanks. WATERS: And there's the last word from the governor. Natalie, what's next? NATALIE ALLEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Washington is zeroing in on one drug in particular today. A new White House policy report is warning of a potential new epidemic involving the use of ecstasy, once the drug of choice at night clubs and all-night dance parties known as raves. The report finds supply and use have expanded dramatically. According to the report, the drug is now being sold in high schools, on the street, and even at coffee shops in some cities. Just yesterday, the U.S. Sentencing Commission stiffened penalties for sale of ecstasy. The new guidelines more than triple potential jail terms, to more than six years for people caught selling at least 800 of the pills. The Supreme Court today ruled hospitals cannot test pregnant women for illegal drugs without their consent, and then turn over those results to the police. The Justices ruled six-to-three in a case from South Carolina. The High Court said such testing violates the constitutional guarantees against unreasonable searches and seizures, even though the hospital's goal was to prevent women from harming their fetuses by using crack cocaine. - --- MAP posted-by: Beth