Pubdate: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 Source: New York Times Drug Policy Forum Website: http://forums.nytimes.com/comment/index-national.html Note: This, and the series of forums, is being archived at MAP as an exception to our web only source posting policies. Future Scheduled Guests: SUNDAY, JAN 6th - 8 p.m. Eastern - 5 p.m. Pacific in the DrugSense Chat Room http://www.drugsense.org/chat A follow up visit with Dutch coffee shop guru Nol van Schaik. Van Schaik owns and manages three renowned coffee shops in Haarlem, Holland, 20 minutes from Amsterdam. Websites: http://www.wwwshop.nl/ http://www.dutchexperience.org/ New York Times article about The Dutch Experience http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1954/a11.html MONDAY, JAN 7th in the New York Times Drug Policy Forum at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific: PANEL - "INDICTMENT OF PROHIBITION" with Judge James P. Gray, Milton Friedman, Eugene Oscapela and Catherine Austin Fitts. Judge Jim Gray's Website http://www.judgejimgray.com/ More about Judge Gray http://www.mapinc.org/people/Judge+Gray Read about Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman at http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/friedman.html More at http://www.mapinc.org/people/Milton+Friedman "Who would believe," Friedman asks, "that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug-free America." Canadian Barrister and Solicitor Eugene Oscapella, a founding member, Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy ( www.cfdp.ca ) recently presented "How Drug Prohibition Finances and Otherwise Enables Terrorism" http://www.cfdp.ca/eoterror.htm to the Senate of Canada Special Committee on Illegal Drugs. Catherine Austin Fitts bio is at http://solari.com/about/ca_fitts.html She is the author of 'Narco-Dollars For Dummies' linked from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1887/a08.html See also http://www.mapinc.org/people/Catherine+Austin+Fitts ~~~~~ TRANSCRIPT: NOL VAN SCHAIK'S VISIT TO THE NYT DRUG POLICY FORUM Nol van Schaik The UK authorities must be really upset, or brainless, or both... The Dutch Experience, UK's first coffeeshop, was raided today, at 3.00 PM, GMT, for the fourth time now... About seven people were arrested for possession of cannabis... Yesterday's press was full about the Lambeth experiment, under which people in certain London districts are no longer arrested for cannabis possession. 400 people were only warned for cannabis use and -possession over there, the police calls the experiment successful, saves a lot of court costs and manpower. Does not seem to be the same for Stockport, 10 officers have been searching the premises for 6 hours, coming up with some baggies of the floor... Everybody charged, will cost the UK's community about 10.000.- GBP, the outcome will be a 50 pound fine, max !! The Dutch Experience is back open now, it was never closed for an entire day, since September 15, 2001. The police are merely playing their last bluff, freedom is ahead... Trippin19181925 RIGHT ON NOL! Dean Becker Welcome Nol, quite a surprise to see you so early. Sorry to hear about the latest bust. Still open though, that's what's important. It is just so crazy. The prohibitionists hang their hats on invisible hat racks. Their slight of hand seems none too slight these days Aahpat Nol; Welcome. It seems clear to me that every simple cannabis possession charge in the UK should now be challenged if it does not provide equal treatment to the Lambeth experiment process. It should be an equal justice argument across the nation. The Jamaican government should be stepping up to the issue now also. Nol van Schaik It seems that the GMP officers are still on random arrest mode, they do as they please, and only arrest cannabis people when it suits them. The Lambeth experiment should indeed give way for the rest of the country, but equal rights are hard to get in the UK, as I keep on finding out. Only three people are still in custody, on my last contact, one of them for having a key to the premises, no cannabis on him... He is being suspected of being concerned in the management of the place....Class Key now ??? This guy is under bail already, normally, he would be released, but in Stockport, it's like the casino ! Dean Becker My first question Nol, is how is Colin doing? What have you heard? Nol van Schaik Colin is trying to look tough for us, I know it is hard for him, without his family and his medicine. He gets a lot of support-mail, from Holland and the UK. He is due in court on January 11, 2002, for the extension of his detention, not much chance he will get out then. HE IS DUE IN COURT ON February 14, 2002. Trippin19181925 Nol I'm sure everyone is pleading not guilty. How many people have been arrested so far on the premises from all four raids? Nol van Schaik So far, about 40 arrest around the DE... all pleading not guilty, which means it will cost 40 x 10.000 GBP to get them all through court. Dean Becker Can we get a mailing address from the Dutch Experience site for Colin? Nol van Schaik Colin Davies, HM Prisons, Strangeways, Southall St., Manchester, M60 9AH Here's the address of Colin's location, Strangeways... Nol van Schaik The complete story on the DE, from day 1, is available here: http://212.129.240.114/upload/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26 Dean Becker 400,000 GBP equals about $600,00, for discretionary arrests. Hard to believe how costly this drug war is, and for what? Outrageous. Nol van Schaik A hernia operation in the UK costs 1500.-GBP... People have to wait for 18 months to have an operation, no money for new hospitals... Dean Becker Thanks Nol, I will send him some updates and a hearty thanks for his efforts. Tell us about the recent troubles you encountered if you will. Nol van Schaik The most recent trouble was today's raid and bust later, they first arrested a guy named Roo, he was arrested for possession on Nov 20, 2001 too. He will probably end up in Strangeways too now. Celaya Hi Nol. Welcome! What I am excited about is that you are pursuing an international strategy. I have heard their plans for cannabis cafes in Scotland. Are there any other countries in the works? Nol van Schaik Yes, Kevin Williamson, the initiator of the Trainspotting movie project, plans to open one in Edinburgh, in April. He seems very serious, we are in contact about the progress. The matter became European, as soon as an Italian MEP, Marco Capatto, handed himself in for possession, in our support... It should be international, marihuana grows without frontiers... Trippin19181925 Can you tell me about the community support of your shop, what do the people really think, are the raids a result of complaints by non marijuana users or is it the police harassing you? Nol van Schaik No, it's not the community, the only neighbours we have in the mini-mall, is a gym... They are completely down with us, as they stated in the NY Times !! Will look the article up... They sell food, so, the smokers come in there to eat... It's pressure from some people with power, not the people, 65 % of the UK population is in favour of legalised cannabis outlets. Trippin19181925 Nol Cool that your neighbors are down with ya. Yeah I know what you mean, it keeps coming back to people with power that is causing this mess no matter what country we are talking about. We really need to put faces and names to these types and drag them out into the light for all to see. We need to turn up the noise on these people and put them out of business once and for all. Nol van Schaik Read this, it was in the New York Times... November 22, 2001 English Pot Smokers' Pub May Prove a Model By SARAH LYALL New York Times STOCKPORT, England, - Until the Dutch Experience cafe opened here earlier this fall, providing marijuana by the bag instead of beer by the pint, Stockport never loomed particularly large in the greater British imagination. "I read in the newspaper that the only thing Stockport is famous for is the hat museum," said Darren Ince, 32, a retail manager, on his way to secure a joint or two at the cafe recently. "I didn't know we were even famous for that." All that changed this fall, when the cafe opened its doors, let the distinctive smoke waft out and instantly turned this unremarkable suburb of Manchester into a battleground for Britain's growing pot smokers' rights movement. The Dutch Experience, modeled on the pot-purveying coffee shops of marijuana-friendly Amsterdam, may well prove to be the thin end of the wedge in Britain, where the government is signaling that it might relax laws on the use of soft drugs in the name of creating a workable drug policy. British drug laws are strict, and the police spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with minor drug offenses, the government says. Sixty-five percent of the 120,000 drug- related arrests in Britain last year were for possession of marijuana. Saying the police should direct their efforts at eradicating hard drugs like heroin and LSD, Home Secretary David Blunkett last month proposed downgrading marijuana to a Class C drug, from its current Class B status. That would make possession of pot no longer an arrestable offense. A pilot project in Brixton, a drug- infested neighborhood in south London where police officers spent six months focusing on hard drugs instead of marijuana, has proved effective, the police say. But Mr. Blunkett's proposals have not yet taken effect, and law enforcement officials across the country are not exactly sure what to do in this interim period. It is unclear, for instance, what the Stockport police really think of the Dutch Experience. After raiding it in September, on the day it opened, they seemed to have adopted a live-and- let-smoke policy, generously acknowledging, they said in a statement, that there is an "ongoing debate about the medical benefits, or otherwise, of cannabis." But it appears that the cafe has been attracting too much attention and too boldly flouting the law, no matter how mellow its activities might seem. On Tuesday, as the BBC was inside filming the cafe for a program about drug policy, the police returned, threw everyone out and charged the owner, Colin Davies, and several others with various drug-related offenses, including selling marijuana. "The police in appropriate cases exercise discretion and judgment with regard to certain offenses of simple possession of cannabis, and each case is taken on merit," said Superintendent Richard Crawshaw of the Greater Manchester Police's Stockport division. "However, in the face of overt and challenging behavior which amounts to intention to break the law, our stance will be one of enforcement." It is hard to know how far such enforcement goes. Even as Mr. Davies, one of Britain's best-known campaigners for legalizing marijuana, remained in custody overnight, his cafe reopened. The patrons came back, sipping coffee, rolling joints, discussing nothing and everything. Despite the occasional police raids, the cannabis cafe, as it is generally known, has proved highly popular with its neighbors. They applaud its strict no-alcohol, no-violence policy, saying they much prefer happy, peaceful druggies to aggressive, unpleasant drunks. "They always look so pleased, and they're really friendly," said Becky Lees, who works at the front desk of the Outline health club, just across the walkway, speaking of the pot smokers at the Dutch Experience. She does not smoke - "I'm addicted to coffee, not cannabis," she said - but always welcomes customers who come in from the Dutch Experience, which sells little in the way of food to vanquish the sudden appetites of its often ravenous clientele. "We get a lot of business out of it, because they get the munchies and come and eat in our cafe," Ms. Lees said. Eating, yes. But no weightlifting. "We don't let people use the gym if they've been smoking weed," she said. "It's not a good idea, for safety reasons, to let people who are stoned use the machines." Mr. Davies, who uses the profits from recreational patrons at the Dutch Experience to help pay for pot for medicinal users, says he started smoking marijuana to quell crippling back pains from the vertebrae he broke after a fall in 1995. Shortly afterward, he founded the Medical Marijuana Cooperative, a mail-order service that discreetly provides pot to people with a variety of illnesses, from cancer to multiple sclerosis. Mr. Davies, 44, jokingly calls the cafe the M.H.S., or the Marijuana Health Service. The National Health Service, or N.H.S., runs Britain's system of socialized medicine. It is not uncommon to see wheelchair users rolling down the path in front of the cafe, seeking drugs inside. "People in wheelchairs shouldn't have to pay for their medicine," said Mr. Davies, who hopes to open a chain of cannabis cafes around Britain. "They should get it free, and that's what we're doing." Mark Chadwick, 39, who hurt his arm in a motorcycle accident, does not care if he can get it free or not, as long as he can get it. For the last month or so he has been regularly paying UKP10 (about $14) or so per bag of pot, enough to roll a half-dozen joints that help keep him off his prescribed painkillers and make it easier to sleep at night. Mr. Chadwick loves the smoky, sleepy atmosphere inside the cafe, with its green tables imported from Amsterdam and its air of festively illicit camaraderie. "It's nothing like going to a pub," he said. "It's like going to the theater instead of going to a movie. In a pub you spend all your time worrying about who's looking at you, who's going to throw a bottle at you." At the cannabis cafe, no one throws anything. Because no hard drugs are allowed, there are no dealers trying to introduce patrons to the double-edged, and far more criminal, attractions of drugs like heroin and cocaine. "If I couldn't buy here, I would have to go to a dealer, which is something I don't want to do," Mr. Chadwick said. At the Stockport Tourist Information center, employees say the Dutch Experience has become one of the most asked-about places in town. A spokeswoman, who in keeping with tourist office policy insisted that her name not be used, declined to say whether she, or any other council employees, had patronized the cafe themselves. "It's certainly put us on the map," she said, "though whether that's a positive thing or a negative thing I couldn't say." [ This news story is MAP archived at http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1954/a11.html ] Celaya Nol We have some pretty clear trails indicating that our "leaders" who support prohibition here are actually following the direction of corporations who are largely owned by drug cartels. Is there any feeling for that kind of ignoble support of prohibition in Europe? Dean Becker How exciting to live within the borders of a nation that can look at its own actions and make corrections as it goes. Here in the US, we are stuck in a medieval time warp, persecution, incarceration, intimidation, forfeiture and chaos. And our leaders call this drug war a success. NOL, How long do you feel it will take the US to follow down the trail being carved out in W. Europe and the UK? Nol van Schaik Dean, I think if this works in the UK, it will have a major impact on both Canada and Australia, both under English rules and reign of the Queen. I do not know how long the US authorities can keep up their shield of lying and denying about cannabis, I can only hope it will make the generals of the War on Drugs think again. Celaya The Dutch Experience is always busy, yet, there has not been any violence... A pub full of people would have two fights a night... It does keep people away from excessive alcohol use, as it shows in the DE, and was said by ex-alcoholics on TV, from the DE... Dean Becker Nol, with the fine list of cannabis products you listed, when we get things together here in Texas, I want to open a Dutch Experience here in Houston on the banks of Buffalo Bayou Nol van Schaik Dean, Keep this idea warm, I would love to be your advisor on that... Steve Nolin one of these daze I'll make it over there) Nol van Schaik Make sure you drop in, snolin, I might just smoke you out. Celaya Yes, the contrast between alcohol and cannabis with regards to violence is striking. We have heard that the whole atmosphere changed for the EURO 2000 when it was held in Amsterdam. What was your experience at that time? Nol van Schaik I was in Amsterdam then, smoked with all possible nationals, they were loud and sweet, after a few joints... They were even taking pics with the cops on the streets, no problems, no violence, and more smoke after the game... Dean Becker Hopefully your kind words will touch the hearts of a few souls here in the US and help to bring more here to see the folly of our current policy. Do you travel to the US much these days? Or is it just too intolerable to come to a gulag country like ours? Dean Becker My doctor wrote me a prescription for Marinol for my alcoholism. Funny thing is, pot takes away the craving, Marinol gets me loopy and makes me want a drink.. go figure. Nol van Schaik Marinol and Cannador and such are bad, synthetic substitutes... By taking the psychoactive substances out of marihuana products, you devaluate the medicine. It's the effect of the active substances that lifts the awareness of sickness, pains, spasms and the craving for alcohol, as such. The plant, the whole plant, and nothing but the plant ! Nol van Schaik I am still wanted in France, for smuggling 200 kilo's of hash to Holland , through that country... We got caught in the south of France, long story, I managed to run, back to Holland. I think the USA would extradite me , so, no, I do not travel much... England does not extradite to France, so, I can kick ass there, hehe.. Nol van Schaik The smuggle incident was in 1989, Holland tried to extradite me in 1997, telling me I was a fugitive all the time... I had a coffeeshop permit for 8 years then, the minister of Justice overruled the extradition decision, I am still here... Celaya Nol I've got to run. Thanks so much for coming! I, too, hope to come visit you some day 8^) Dean Becker And kick ass you do Nol! I know it's late there and I want you to know we can continue this on Sunday evening at the DrugSense chats. Anything else you want to tell the NY Times, or anyone else for that matter? Nol van Schaik For the New York Times The truth will get you the best stories ! For all of you May the stash be with you ! Read you on Sunday, it was a pleasure, wish I could type faster... Trippin19181925 Nol Thanks for coming by and talking with us. Dean Becker Thanks Nol! We should have this transcript done by tomorrow and I will send you a copy via email and send a hard copy to Colin. Nol's websites http://www.wwwshop.nl/ and http://www.dutchexperience.org/ See you on Sunday at the DrugSense Chats, www.drugsense.org/chat Steve Nolin cya Nol)-~ Nol van Schaik Thanks for being interested, hope your government will wake up, and smell the coffeeshops, one day ! - --- MAP posted-by: Richard Lake