Source: CNN's Crossfire Sunday Pubdate: Aired November 9, 1997 7:30 p.m. ET Contact: Contact: http://cnn.com/feedback/ DISCUSSION ON WHETHER PEOPLE IN SEVERE PAIN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE MARIJUANA (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ACTOR, "MURPHY BROWN": Brought you something. CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS: What? Is this what I think it is? ACTOR: Yes. It's a plastic bag full of marijuana. BERGEN: And where did you get this? ACTOR: I bought it in the park. I understand it might relieve your nausea, and I checked with the Justice Department. Miss Reno is out of town. (END VIDEO CLIP) BOB BECKEL, ANCHOR (voiceover): Should people in severe pain be allowed to use marijuana to ease their suffering? ANNOUNCER (voiceover): From Washington, CROSSFIRE SUNDAY. On the left, Bob Beckel. On the right, Lynne Cheney. In the crossfire, Republican Congressman Mark Souder of Indiana, and in New York, "National Review" senior editor Richard Brookhiser, a cancer survivor who used marijuana. BECKEL: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE SUNDAY. Once again, CBS's "Murphy Brown" has sparked a debate. Should patients be able to legally use marijuana in their fight against deadly diseases? (voiceover) Murphy Brown smoked pot to relieve nausea her character was experiencing from chemotherapy. The Drug Enforcement Agency administrator, Tom Constantine, noticed Murphy's puffing and got a little steamed himself. He said, "CBS and those responsible for Murphy Brown's show do a great disservice by depicting breast cancer responsibly with both sensitivity and humor while at the same time trivializing drug abuse." CBS fired back with this statement: " `Murphy Brown' has a rich history of successfully blending comedy with controversial political and social issues and doing it responsibly. We believe last night's episode follows that tradition." Meanwhile, an initiative in Washington State to legalize marijuana in addition to other drugs for medical purposes went down in flames Tuesday. (on camera) So who's right and who's high? Lynne. LYNNE CHENEY, ANCHOR: Richard Brookhiser, welcome to CROSSFIRE. RICHARD BROOKHISER, USED MARIJUANA FOR CANCER: Thanks for having me. CHENEY: I know that you think marijuana should be legalized for medical purposes, and you make this argument partly based on your own experience. Why don't you tell us what your experience was? BROOKHISER: Sure. I had testicular cancer five years ago, and the treatment for it is very straightforward. You have an operation, and you have chemotherapy, and it's a fairly rough form of it, and in most people, chemotherapy causes nausea because the chemicals are poisonous, and this is the body's reaction to them. Now I had I had my courses of chemotherapy were five weeks in the hospital at a stretch once a month for four months. Halfway through this treatment, I could tell that the cumulative effects were overtaking the legal drugs antinausea drugs that I was being given. So I turned to marijuana for courses three and four. None of my doctors, none of my nurses discouraged me from doing this. They had all had experience with cancer patients who had done this, but, of course, they couldn't recommend it or prescribe it because it's illegal. CHENEY: Now your personal testimony, of course, is very effective, and I think you and I both know that, in many instances, personal testimony is very effective, but it isn't the same thing as scientific evidence, is it, and you and I both know that there is a lack of scientific evidence showing that marijuana is safe and effective for any medical reason? BROOKHISER: Well, now that that's not quite true. There have been some tests. The reason there aren't more tests is that the federal government makes it impossible to do the tests. There is an AIDS researcher in San Francisco, Dr. Donald Abrams (ph), who's been going through the paperwork for four years to try and get some pot from the federal government to do a test on marijuana in the wasting syndrome. But there have been some tests. There was a test that the Los Angeles Police Department arranged for in 1970 to see if pot dilated the eyeballs, and this suggested that it actually relieved pressure within the eyeball, which is why it works to combat glaucoma. So it's not quite true to say that there's no testing, and in terms of individuals, you could also call that clinical experience. CHENEY: Or anecdotes. BECKEL: Richard, let me... BROOKHISER: Well, no, clinical... BECKEL: Let me bring the Congressman in here because I want you Congressman, I want you to look, if you would, at an ad that was run in Washington State for this referendum. If we could bring that up. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CANCER VICTIM (promedicinal marijuana ad for Washington State Proposition 685): I have cancer and may have only a year to live. You wouldn't take these crutches away and watch me struggle, so why should the government take away my medicine and make me suffer? I have extreme pain and nausea, and the only drug that relieves my suffering is marijuana. (END VIDEO CLIP) BECKEL: All right, Congressman. You look at somebody like that that's dying and, in fact, I understand that person is now in the hospital near the end of his life. How in the world can you justify taking away from this man something like marijuana that clearly in his view eases his pain and makes his death a little bit easier? I mean, how can you justify that? REP. MARK SOUDER, (R), INDIANA: Over a thousand studies. Almost everyone has shown that there are other alternatives and that marijuana has side effects that are bad, and I do not agree that it is, just on the basis of a few anecdotes, the most effective way. Marinol (ph) and other things can work. They're looking at nasal sprays with that, and we should not put the endorsement of that it's medical on marijuana, or it will have other devastating side effects. BECKEL: Well... SOUDER: I feel sorry for the individual, but that is not proof. BECKEL: OK. Well, Mark I mean, clearly, this man believes that what he is using, the marijuana, does ease his pain and other things do not. I've heard that over and over. For... SOUDER: The Cancer Society doesn't believe that. BECKEL: Well, wait a second. Well, the Cancer Society doesn't have cancer, do they? This man does. But here's my question. If this fellow went... SOUDER: That's... BECKEL: Now wait a minute. You people Republicans particularly on this issue very strong on making sure that the law is followed to the letter. If this dying man went out into a park and bought a bag of marijuana to ease his suffering, that's breaking the law. Would you have him arrested and thrown in jail? SOUDER: I'm appalled that "Murphy Brown"... BECKEL: I want to know whether you would have this man arrested. Could you answer me that? SOUDER: ... that leaders in the country you can take isolated cases, but I want to know whether you'll defend... BECKEL: Mark... SOUDER: ... the little 4yearold boy in Fort Wayne who was shot in the middle of a marijuana war, the people who died on the interstate highway in Fort Wayne because they were... BECKEL: That doesn't answer my question. SOUDER: ... killed because people... BECKEL: Would you have this man arrested? SOUDER: If you lift the stigma on marijuana, more people are going to die. I want to find other ways to help that poor man... BECKEL: I take it you're not answering my question... SOUDER: ... rather than... BECKEL: ... for some reason. CHENEY: Richard... BROOKHISER: The Congressman... CHENEY: Richard Brookhiser... BROOKHISER: Congressman, do you want to take morphine out of hospitals? Morphine is opium. Is that... SOUDER: But I don't link it... BROOKHISER: ... sending a bad example to our kids? SOUDER: I don't want to give them opium, and I don't want... BROOKHISER: Doctors prescribe... SOUDER: ... to give heroin. BROOKHISER: Doctors prescribe morphine all the time. CHENEY: But, Richard... SOUDER: That's why I want marinol (ph). CHENEY: Richard, you know there's... BROOKHISER: Well, Congressman... CHENEY: ... a very big difference, don't you, between marijuana and medicine? There is no medicine in the world that is like marijuana where you have to talk about, as Jim Dial (ph) did on "Murphy Brown", how many seeds do you have here, how many pods, how many blossoms, is this Acapulco Gold or I don't know what something else green. I don't know these names. Marijuana is not a medicine. There is the active ingredient in marijuana called marinol (ph) that has been extracted that is a stable ingredient that you can actually call a medicine. Marijuana is not a medicine. BROOKHISER: Well, in answer well, first of all, Lynne, with marinol (ph), if you're fighting nausea, a pill is not a very intelligent thing to take. CHENEY: But the... BROOKHISER: It just isn't. The second thing is... SOUDER: They're working on... BROOKHISER: The second thing is that with marinol (ph) it's harder for patients to titrate the dose. Now I didn't compare it myself. I mean, there are people who have used both marinol (ph) and marijuana. I didn't do it, and none of my doctors told me to fool around with marinol (ph). None of them discouraged me from going to marijuana, and my main oncologist who was the head of oncology at NYU Medical Center I wasn't going to faith healers in the Philippines on this. He did a survey of oncologists across America... SOUDER: No, 10 percent. BROOKHISER: ... and the majority of them said... SOUDER: The majority of 10 percent. BROOKHISER: ... of the oncologists said that they would recommend... SOUDER: The majority of 10 percent. BROOKHISER: ... well so 10 percent. Congressman, are do you want the federal government to be telling doctors and patients what they should do? I thought we fought Clinton care on this. SOUDER: Yes. We have illegal substance laws in this country, and I absolutely want those laws followed. We have far I feel terrible for the individuals, and we need to look at ways to relieve their nausea. We should not legalize drugs that are destroying this country. BECKEL: This may get you... BROOKHISER: Well, Congressman... BECKEL: Wait a second. This may get me back to my question and make it a little easier for you. Do you believe that people who purchase marijuana, which is illegal those people suffering from cancer ought to be arrested? SOUDER: I believe that this whole movement on medicinal use of marijuana... BECKEL: Mark, why can't you guys answer these questions? I want to know they broke the law, did they not, by buying marijuana? SOUDER: Yes, I believe... BECKEL: Then, therefore, they should be arrested, right? SOUDER: I we do not focus on individuals to get arrested in this country. They need to have the potential of being arrested. We focus on dealers and large users of marijuana. I do not believe we should go around worrying about everyone of these cases, but I object to people like this being used in the middle of an effort to legalize drugs in this and Richard Brookhiser had a terrible experience. I feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for that man in that commercial in Washington, but they shouldn't be used cynically by people who are leading indirectly to the murder... CHENEY: Richard... BECKEL: They're voluntarily talking about this. BROOKHISER: I'm using myself. I'm not doing there's nothing cynical about it. CHENEY: Well but, Richard, let's make your entire position clear to our viewers. You really support the legalization of marijuana, don't you? BROOKHISER: I there are two separate issues. There's legalization of marijuana... CHENEY: I'm not sure they're separate. BROOKHISER: Well, sure, because opium is illegal, but morphine is used in hospitals. SOUDER: Did he answer the question? BROOKHISER: I mean, cocaine is used for medical uses even though it's illegal. CHENEY: You are not answering my question, Richard. I wonder if you might have... BROOKHISER: Yes, I support the legalization of marijuana. I do. I also support its legalization for medical use. There are people... CHENEY: Why do you support.... BROOKHISER: ... who oppose the legalization of it for, you know, recreation or whatever but who support its medical use. CHENEY: But how can you support... BROOKHISER: The two are not necessarily linked. CHENEY: Of course, they are. If you... BROOKHISER: No, they're not because look... CHENEY: Yes. Of course, they are. BROOKHISER: Then why is morphine... CHENEY: Excuse me, but if... BROOKHISER: Why is morphine used in hospitals? Morphine doesn't lead people into opium dens. CHENEY: If you tell kids that marijuana is a nice thing, it is a medicine, it will help you... BROOKHISER: It is not a nice thing. CHENEY: ... it helps take the onus... BROOKHISER: Lynne... CHENEY: ... of marijuana... BROOKHISER: Lynne, listen to me... CHENEY: ... which is incredibly destructive, which damages... BROOKHISER: Lynne... CHENEY: ... brain cells, which damages... BROOKHISER: Lynne, when I was in the hospital... CHENEY: ... DNA.... BROOKHISER: Lynne, when I was bald in the hospital because I'd lost all my hair and I was in a hospital gown and I had an IV tube in my arm, I wasn't cool. That is not a cool thing to show a kid. CHENEY: And I wasn't suggesting that... BROOKHISER: It wasn't recreation, and I didn't... SOUDER: That's irrelevant. BROOKHISER: ... get cancer... CHENEY: We have to go to a break. BROOKHISER: I didn't get cancer to get high. CHENEY: We have to go to a break, Richard, and when we get back, we will discuss whether there is a connection between the desire to legalize marijuana for medical reasons and the desire to make pot generally legal. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ACTOR, "MURPHY BROWN": What is so wrong about taking some time off? CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS: No, Jim. I'm not going to let this thing beat me. ACTOR: But look at you, slugger. BERGEN: Jim, what do you want me to do? I've tried everything. No, that's not true. I haven't tried leeches. I haven't tried pot because I know, the second I'd light one up, Janet Reno would kick my door down. She'd do it, too. (END VIDEO CLIP) CHENEY: But, indeed, she does smoke pot. There she goes again. TV's Murphy Brown doing something controversial. She smokes marijuana for medical reasons. And joining us tonight to debate whether this should be legal are "National Review" senior editor Richard Brookhiser, a cancer survivor who used marijuana, and Congressman Mark Souder, a Republican from Indiana. BECKEL: Congressman Souder, in the last segment, we were talking about other drugs that are legal but are highly addictive morphine being one of them that are used with cancer patients, much more highly addictive than marijuana. The number of people who died last year in this country from overdosing from legal prescription medication was by one estimation 50 times more than anybody who died of marijuana use. Now don't you think that before you all start jumping on the marijuana bandwagon, that legally produced prescription drugs in this country are a far bigger drug problem far bigger, much more costly and involving more deaths than marijuana ever will be? SOUDER: If you're including alcohol and tobacco in that I believe we would not legalize those today if they were coming in, and I don't think we should make the mistake of legalizing marijuana. For kids, all these things are gateway drugs into even harder if you include cocaine, heroin, and LSD, your statistics start to differ as well. BECKEL: Well, if you you know, this talk about gateway drugs I let me let me put my cards on the table here. I for several years several years ago smoked marijuana myself, and it never led to harder drugs. I know lots and lots and lots of people who are similar... SOUDER: Also not jail. BECKEL: Well, not well, that's true, but my point is that this is not about kids smoking pot. I am against that. I'm for legalizing heroin and cocaine in clinical distribution but not marijuana. Now but for medicinal purposes, how can you defend these big companies that produce this stuff that addicts people every day and be against some poor guy dying using marijuana? SOUDER: The biggest problem we have in this country today is drug and alcohol abuse leading to most of the crime we have in this country, and the way we're going to get a hold of crime is to get a hold of these substances. As I go around to high schools, as adults, as symbols on television like "Murphy Brown" once again proving Dan Quayle was right that as they send these signals, it's breaking down the resistance is breaking down in the schools, and they're thinking the adults are saying, "Hey, this is medicine. Hey, this is OK." People like yourself who are an example, at least to liberals in this country, are not helpful by saying, "I did this." It's not helpful. CHENEY: Richard Brookhiser, would you watch a clip... BECKEL: I'm being honest. SOUDER: Well, I appreciate your honesty. CHENEY: ... a clip with me from the "Murphy Brown" show, and I think it makes a point about the relationship between the socalled medical use of marijuana and the recreational use. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS, "MURPHY BROWN": No, no. Jim, it's not a cigarette. You're holding it all wrong. You're not trying to impress Ingrid Bergman at Rick's Cafe. It's a joint. Let me show you. Look. Cigarette. Cigar. Joint. Cigar. Joint. (END VIDEO CLIP) CHENEY: I cannot tell you how offensive I found this. She is showing someone who's not sick how to smoke pot and showing him the cool way to do it. The only warning that CBS gave was that 14year olds and under shouldn't watch this unaccompanied. What 15yearold or 16yearold watching this would not conclude that you can be very cool if you smoke marijuana? BROOKHISER: Well, I don't know what to tell you, Lynne. I never watch television, and do people make their laws does Congress make its laws on the basis of sitcoms? I mean, maybe that's why the congressional Republican majority is so screwed up and hasn't.. CHENEY: But, Richard.... BROOKHISER: ... accomplished anything. CHENEY: ... you know, I somehow had an impression that, you know, you were a conservative, that you believed that... BROOKHISER: "National Review" has been in favor of decriminalizing marijuana since 1971. CHENEY: Oh, I know. SOUDER: Your attack on congressional Republicans, I'm sure, didn't help your reputation. BROOKHISER: Haven't you been reading the magazine? CHENEY: Of course, I have, and I know that, and it was a great disappointment to me, and I know that you have advocated the legalization of marijuana, and so for you to use your own personal experience to talk about medicalizing marijuana troubles me because I see a relationship between these two things. BROOKHISER: Well, look, Lynne, I have to assure you that I did not smoke marijuana recreationally before my experience with cancer. I certainly would never do it after my experience because marijuana is now, in my mind, associated with hospitals and toilet bowls and vomiting. CHENEY: But how about but why don't you talk about... BROOKHISER: If you want to get America off marijuana, give everybody a case of cancer and a course of chemotherapy and have them smoke pot to relieve their nausea. CHENEY: But come on, Richard. Come on, Richard. You're... BROOKHISER: They'll never do it again. CHENEY: ... playing the victim entirely too much here. Let's talk about... BROOKHISER: I'm not playing the victim. I'm talking about how... CHENEY: Let's talk about how marijuana... BROOKHISER: ... about my own experience, and let me tell... CHENEY: ... harms young people. Richard, could I speak for just a... BROOKHISER: Lynne, let me tell you something no, Lynne, let me tell... CHENEY: ... minute or two since I am the host on this show? Bob was talking about how "Well, I smoked pot, and I didn't then go on to do cocaine." In fact, if you use cocaine, you are 85 times more likely to have been a pot smoker. If you're a pot smoker, you're 85 times more likely to use cocaine. It is a gateway drug and, Richard, you... BROOKHISER: How many... CHENEY: ... can't think this is good for young people. BECKEL: If you're a cigarette smoker, you're much more likely to die, but it seems to me the conservatives have no problem leaving that stuff on the market. But let me can I... CHENEY: Baby boomers don't see a single difference between... BECKEL: Wait a second. SOUDER: I believe... BECKEL: Wait. Hold it. BROOKHISER: Lynne, let me get a word in. BECKEL: Wait a second. Wait a second. Let me get a word in, if I could, for a minute because I'm I'm a little tired of you guys picking on poor Murphy Brown here. You know, I find it offensive when Pat Robertson gets on the air on that silly "700 Club" of his and bashes homosexuals, bashes immigrants. That is the most intolerant man I know, and yet you all think he's a wonderful guy. For Pat Robertson to bash a whole group of community of gay people and Murphy Brown to make a joke about marijuana and you all keep your mouth shut about Robertson because, I guess, he scares you, but you beat up on Murphy Brown. Give me a break. SOUDER: Murphy Brown is in using comedy in a as a means to achieve political change, and I find that deceitful. On top of that furthermore, she used... BECKEL: And Pat Robertson is using the Bible to against people. SOUDER: She used breast cancer, in a show that actually was supposedly trying to help Americans understand the devastating impacts of breast cancer, as a back doorway to do a political agenda. If she wants to have a talk show like Pat Robertson and say offensive things, then do that. I don't defend everything Pat Robertson does. I have my disagreements with him, and I will speak out as I have on some of his more extreme statements. BECKEL: OK. Let me just ask both and you Lynne one fast question. What would you do about this? I mean, seriously, it's not antagonistic. You can't stop CBS from running that, right? CHENEY: Of course not... BECKEL: Oh, OK. CHENEY: ... but you certainly can complain, and that's what I'm doing now, and I would sure like to get Richard Brookhiser, just on the basis I know you never watch television, Richard, but just on the basis of our description of it, to say this was a little irresponsible. Listen to what CBS spokesman Mr. Constantine said. "We had no political agenda," he said. "We are not advocating the medical use of marijuana." Now don't you find that a little... BROOKHISER: Lynne... CHENEY: ... hypocritical? BROOKHISER: Lynne, I'll tell you what's irresponsible. That is the fact that if I get cancer again or that if any of us get cancer or anyone we know gets cancer and we turn to marijuana we won't get in trouble because we're in the media elite or we're in politics. We're not the kind of people that the cops go after. The cops go after average people living here and there in the heartland. SOUDER: That's not... BROOKHISER: They're the people who go to jail. They're the people who suffer for trying to... CHENEY: Well... BROOKHISER: ... buy marijuana for their medical conditions. CHENEY: ... I appreciate your try at populism here, but, in fact, I would suspect that, if I wanted some marijuana, it would be very hard for me to get it. Somebody might happen to recognize me if I went to he's supposed to have got that in Lafayette Park Lafayette Square? BROOKHISER: You could get it in about 20 minutes, Lynne, and you wouldn't get in any trouble whatsoever... CHENEY: I don't believe it. I don't... BROOKHISER: ... because you are a big deal to... CHENEY: ... think your little try there at populism works too well. SOUDER: (crosstalk) ... clear antidrug message to this country. This is not helping. BECKEL: Well but, Mark, I mean, it is true if I were to leave this studio and go any 10 square blocks around here or to the suburbs, I could in 15 minutes buy you an ounce of marijuana without any difficulty, but the point... SOUDER: We need Mayor Giuliani here, I agree. BECKEL: Well, I yeah well, let's not get into Giuliani. What I want to know is... SOUDER: (crosstalk) ... Bill Archer of Detroit who's been doing an excellent job of making progress in Detroit. BECKEL: There are people who have relatives who are laying sick, dying, and in horrible pain who go out into the streets and buy marijuana for to relieve that suffering. Police do arrest users and buyers. It happens all the time. The jails are full with them. I want to go back to a question I asked you before. At the least, can we decriminalize the purchase of marijuana for people who are suffering or if their relatives are trying to provide them with marijuana? SOUDER: I do not believe we should do that because I believe first off, that's not scientifically proven. Most doctors don't agree. There are ways to take the marinol (ph) and try to alleviate the suffering, and we're working on that, and we should. BECKEL: OK. Representative Mark Souder of Indiana and Richard Brookhiser in New York, thank you both for being with us. This was a lively debate, and when we come back, Lynne and I are going to try to resolve it. Probably not, but we'll give it a shot. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHENEY: Bob, it was Mark Flanagan (ph), the executive producer of "Murphy Brown," who claimed that the show was not advocating the medical use of marijuana. This is sheer hypocrisy. They're using the show to do that. A lot of people are using suffering victims of cancer to try to legalize marijuana generally, and I think it's outrageous. BECKEL: Well, I've got a correction, too. Before my poor old mother falls off her chair, it was in college, Ma, when I smoked the marijuana. Now I agree with you. I mean, I would not say that do I think that the people behind "Murphy Brown" think that the medicinal use of marijuana is right? Yes. I certainly do, and it's not a question of using suffering people. The guy on that ad in Washington State and Brookhiser who we had on here are people who had real experience with this, and they were suffering, and it helped them, and... CHENEY: But, Bob, this... BECKEL: ... I don't think anybody ought to deny them that. CHENEY: This isn't science. I mean, this is tragic suffering on an individual basis. BECKEL: Yeah. CHENEY: Science requires large studies. We don't have anything that says that marijuana is safe or effective. You and I maybe could close this show in agreeing that we ought to have and that the government ought to find ways to make sure the active ingredient in marijuana can be administered effectively. BECKEL: I'm all for doing it. I want NIS to test all this stuff out. Everybody got high on it it's just to make sure maybe we can find some good use for this product. From the left, proud to be liberal, I'm Bob Beckel. Good night from CROSSFIRE SUNDAY. CHENEY: And from the right, and right on most issues, I'm Lynne Cheney. Join us again tomorrow night at 7:30 p.m. Eastern for another edition of CROSSFIRE. © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.